Best approach for swtching from 32-bit to 64-bit?

[John Hall]

Within the next year or so, I think I shall have to buy a new PC, which
will have to run 64-bit Windows as more and more applications nowadays
become 64-bit only. There seem to be two routes I could take:

1. Install a 32-bit VM, so I can continue using the Turnpike that I know
and love.

Pros: No need to learn a new email and news client.
Cons: The VM will add extra complexity and I'll have to learn how to use
it. Also I imagine I'll have to pay for it.

2. Switch to using Thunderbird.

Pros: I can run a trial of (32-bit) Thunderbird before I get the new PC,
which will give me a chance to find out if it's for me before doing
anything irrevocable.
Cons: I'll have to transfer my data - of which the most important thing
is probably my address book - across from TP to TB, but I think I know
how to do this, thanks to tips in posts to this newsgroup that I've
saved over the years. The other con is that I'll have to learn how to
use TB.

Can anyone recommend which approach they think is better?

(I'm going off on an eight day holiday tomorrow, and may not see any
responses until I return.)

[Bryan Morris]

Post by John Hall
Within the next year or so, I think I shall have to buy a new PC, which
will have to run 64-bit Windows as more and more applications nowadays

I think I'm going to have to abandon Turnpike.
After great help on here I'm giving up as I can't remember my password
from 20+ years ago. In addition now emails I send from Turnpike are
being rejected. Gmail won't accept Turnpike mail and now neither will my
hospital
(reason: 550 5.4.1 Recipient address rejected: Access denied.
AS(201806281) [CWLGBR01FT009.eop-gbr01.prod.protection.outlook.com
2023-06-03T15:20:38.881Z 08DB636EB9EE5138])

I've installed Thunderbird and now stuck. I can find out from my
provider the passwords of my various email accounts but Thunderbird asks
me for
Connection security (both POP3 and SMTP)
Authentication method (both POP3 and SMTP)
Port (suggests 995 POP3 - No suggestion SMTP)

[J. P. Gilliver]

Post by Bryan Morris

Post by John Hall
Within the next year or so, I think I shall have to buy a new PC,
which will have to run 64-bit Windows as more and more applications

I think I'm going to have to abandon Turnpike.
After great help on here I'm giving up as I can't remember my password
from 20+ years ago. In addition now emails I send from Turnpike are
being rejected. Gmail won't accept Turnpike mail and now neither will
my hospital
(reason: 550 5.4.1 Recipient address rejected: Access denied.
AS(201806281) [CWLGBR01FT009.eop-gbr01.prod.protection.outlook.com
2023-06-03T15:20:38.881Z 08DB636EB9EE5138])

The reason may have nothing to do with Turnpike. I was getting bounces
of emails to gmail recipients - with equally puzzling and dishonest
reasons - even though I was sending from PlusNet's webmail user
interface, and they continued when I went back to Turnpike. Turns out
gmail are being more fussy now: when they receive an email "From:" a
domain, they interrogate something at that domain, saying basically "are
your users authorised to send from that mail server?". Since I have my
own domain, but send via PlusNet's server (even when using Turnpike), I
had to have my hosting provider help me add the names of PlusNet's
outgoing mailserver to some record associated with my hostname. (If I'd
used the hosting provider's outgoing mailserver, things would have been
OK, as they add the name of their own such server, anyway, to the
relevant record for the domains they host.) I forget the name of the
record that had to be amended, but the relevant line of text had to have
extra "include=" terms included in it.

The bounces from gmail weren't on all mails - some got through. Why, I
don't know.

Post by Bryan Morris
I've installed Thunderbird and now stuck. I can find out from my
provider the passwords of my various email accounts but Thunderbird
asks me for
Connection security (both POP3 and SMTP)
Authentication method (both POP3 and SMTP)
Port (suggests 995 POP3 - No suggestion SMTP)

There should, if they're any good, be a page on your provider's website
giving those settings - ideally specifically for common clients, which
should include TB. Google something like "how to use Thunderbird with
<provider>".

[Adrian]

Post by John Hall
Within the next year or so, I think I shall have to buy a new PC, which
will have to run 64-bit Windows as more and more applications nowadays
1. Install a 32-bit VM, so I can continue using the Turnpike that I
know and love.
Pros: No need to learn a new email and news client.
Cons: The VM will add extra complexity and I'll have to learn how to
use it. Also I imagine I'll have to pay for it.

I've got Oracle's VirtualBox and VMWare's Workstation Player installed,
and they are both free to download and use.

Very little in the way of complexity, or to learn. Download and install
the VM software (simple). Download the Windows 10/32 ISO (simple), and
then a few clicks on the VM software and you've got a Win10 install
running. It seems that you can run it without a licence, with a minor
loss of functionality. You can set up the VM to interact with the
underlying PC's file system (my VM mounts it as the Z drive), which is
handy for transferring files (e.g. setting up Turnpike and for email
attachments) between the VM and the underlying machine.

Come on in, the water's lovely.

Adrian

[John Hall]

Post by Adrian

Post by John Hall
Within the next year or so, I think I shall have to buy a new PC,
which will have to run 64-bit Windows as more and more applications
1. Install a 32-bit VM, so I can continue using the Turnpike that I
know and love.
Pros: No need to learn a new email and news client.
Cons: The VM will add extra complexity and I'll have to learn how to
use it. Also I imagine I'll have to pay for it.

I've got Oracle's VirtualBox and VMWare's Workstation Player installed,
and they are both free to download and use.

Free is good. But why do you need both rather than one or the other?

Post by Adrian
Very little in the way of complexity, or to learn. Download and
install the VM software (simple). Download the Windows 10/32 ISO
(simple), and then a few clicks on the VM software and you've got a
Win10 install running. It seems that you can run it without a licence,
with a minor loss of functionality. You can set up the VM to interact
with the underlying PC's file system (my VM mounts it as the Z drive),
which is handy for transferring files (e.g. setting up Turnpike and for
email attachments) between the VM and the underlying machine.
Come on in, the water's lovely.

Thanks. That does seem encouraging.

[Adrian]

Post by John Hall
Free is good. But why do you need both rather than one or the other?

I / you don't. I mentioned both as examples (apologies for the
confusion).

When I started looking at going down this route, both were recommended,
so I installed both and tried both out (up to and including the W10
install. FWIW, I ended up using the Oracle product as that seems to stay
up until I close it down. VMWare seems to hibernate the VM when the
VM's screen saver kicks in, so you have to wake it up again to carry on.
One of these years I'll try turning the screen saver off and see what
happens.

Adrian

[SilverE]

At 19:32:18 on Mon, 5 Jun 2023, Adrian wrote in

Post by Adrian

Post by John Hall
Free is good. But why do you need both rather than one or the other?

I / you don't. I mentioned both as examples (apologies for the
confusion).
When I started looking at going down this route, both were recommended,
so I installed both and tried both out (up to and including the W10
install. FWIW, I ended up using the Oracle product as that seems to
stay up until I close it down. VMWare seems to hibernate the VM when
the VM's screen saver kicks in, so you have to wake it up again to
carry on. One of these years I'll try turning the screen saver off and
see what happens.

I've never seen that happen in VMWare - but then I don't have a screen
saver set as I don't see the VM's desktop as it's in Unity mode.

[John Hall]

Post by Adrian

Post by John Hall
Free is good. But why do you need both rather than one or the other?

I / you don't. I mentioned both as examples (apologies for the
confusion).
When I started looking at going down this route, both were recommended,
so I installed both and tried both out (up to and including the W10
install. FWIW, I ended up using the Oracle product as that seems to
stay up until I close it down. VMWare seems to hibernate the VM when
the VM's screen saver kicks in, so you have to wake it up again to
carry on. One of these years I'll try turning the screen saver off and
see what happens.
Adrian

Thanks. One more question. Does the PC need to be running any particular
variant of Windows (10/11, Home/Pro/Whatever) or should the VM software
work regardless?

[Adrian]

Post by John Hall

Post by Adrian

Post by John Hall
Free is good. But why do you need both rather than one or the other?

I / you don't. I mentioned both as examples (apologies for the
confusion).
When I started looking at going down this route, both were
recommended, so I installed both and tried both out (up to and
including the W10 install. FWIW, I ended up using the Oracle product
as that seems to stay up until I close it down. VMWare seems to
hibernate the VM when the VM's screen saver kicks in, so you have to
wake it up again to carry on. One of these years I'll try turning the
screen saver off and see what happens.
Adrian

Thanks. One more question. Does the PC need to be running any
particular variant of Windows (10/11, Home/Pro/Whatever) or should the
VM software work regardless?

I'm running "Windows 10 Home".

It occurs to me, one thing to watch out for. The VM will probably like
at least 1GB of RAM, which is "taken" from the physical machine, so if
you're spec'ing a machine, you might want to factor that in. The VM
that I'm using at the moment has 2GB, but that allows me to run a bit
more than Turnpike (browser, PDF viewer) that makes life a bit easier.

Adrian

[John Hall]

Post by Adrian

Post by John Hall

Post by Adrian

Post by John Hall
Free is good. But why do you need both rather than one or the other?

I / you don't. I mentioned both as examples (apologies for the
confusion).
When I started looking at going down this route, both were
recommended, so I installed both and tried both out (up to and
including the W10 install. FWIW, I ended up using the Oracle product
as that seems to stay up until I close it down. VMWare seems to
hibernate the VM when the VM's screen saver kicks in, so you have to
wake it up again to carry on. One of these years I'll try turning the
screen saver off and see what happens.
Adrian

Thanks. One more question. Does the PC need to be running any
particular variant of Windows (10/11, Home/Pro/Whatever) or should the
VM software work regardless?

I'm running "Windows 10 Home".
It occurs to me, one thing to watch out for. The VM will probably like
at least 1GB of RAM, which is "taken" from the physical machine, so if
you're spec'ing a machine, you might want to factor that in. The VM
that I'm using at the moment has 2GB, but that allows me to run a bit
more than Turnpike (browser, PDF viewer) that makes life a bit easier.
Adrian

Thanks. As the "parent" OS will be 64-bit, I'll make sure I buy one with
plenty of RAM.

One final - hopefully! - question. Does having a VM complicate the
process of taking backs-ups, or will my memory-resident back-up utility
running in the parent machine be able to "see" the whole disk and spot
any files that have been altered, whether by software running on either
the parent or on the VM, and back them up? (I'm backing up to NAS, if
that's relevant.)

[SilverE]

At 09:39:13 on Tue, 6 Jun 2023, John Hall wrote in

Post by John Hall
One final - hopefully! - question. Does having a VM complicate the
process of taking backs-ups, or will my memory-resident back-up utility
running in the parent machine be able to "see" the whole disk and spot
any files that have been altered, whether by software running on either
the parent or on the VM, and back them up? (I'm backing up to NAS, if
that's relevant.)

The VM's virtual disk is a single very large file on the host machine so
you won't want to back that up on a regular basis. I'd hope you can run
the same backup software within the VM and get a separate backup of that
to your NAS.

One point in favour of VirtualBox over VMWare is that it can take
incremental snapshots of the VM at any point, so keeping a few of them
allows you to revert to an earlier version very easily. I'm not sure
that you can automate that, or backup further to a NAS.

[John Hall]

Post by SilverE
At 09:39:13 on Tue, 6 Jun 2023, John Hall wrote in

Post by John Hall
One final - hopefully! - question. Does having a VM complicate the
process of taking backs-ups, or will my memory-resident back-up
utility running in the parent machine be able to "see" the whole disk
and spot any files that have been altered, whether by software running
on either the parent or on the VM, and back them up? (I'm backing up
to NAS, if that's relevant.)

The VM's virtual disk is a single very large file on the host machine
so you won't want to back that up on a regular basis. I'd hope you can
run the same backup software within the VM and get a separate backup of
that to your NAS.
One point in favour of VirtualBox over VMWare is that it can take
incremental snapshots of the VM at any point, so keeping a few of them
allows you to revert to an earlier version very easily. I'm not sure
that you can automate that, or backup further to a NAS.

Thanks. I suppose if TP is pretty much all I'm running on the VM it
won't be a major problem. I can just manually copy its data files across
to the main machine every now and then, and have them back up from
there.

[Adrian]

Post by John Hall
One final - hopefully! - question. Does having a VM complicate the
process of taking backs-ups, or will my memory-resident back-up utility
running in the parent machine be able to "see" the whole disk and spot
any files that have been altered, whether by software running on either
the parent or on the VM, and back them up? (I'm backing up to NAS, if
that's relevant.)

As SilverE has pointed out, the VM appears as one large file
(effectively its disk), and a clutch of smaller ones on the host
machine, so you might want to tweak your backup to exclude that. My
large file is about 53GB.

I back up my VM once a week, and I just copy the entire Turnpike
directory to the host machine, and the back up on the host machine then
picks that up. If all you are running on the VM is Turnpike, then that
will probably take you less than a minute to do. Remember to shut down
Turnpike Connect first, it will have files open, which may cause you
problems.

Adrian

[John Hall]

Post by Adrian

Post by John Hall
One final - hopefully! - question. Does having a VM complicate the
process of taking backs-ups, or will my memory-resident back-up
utility running in the parent machine be able to "see" the whole disk
and spot any files that have been altered, whether by software running
on either the parent or on the VM, and back them up? (I'm backing up
to NAS, if that's relevant.)

As SilverE has pointed out, the VM appears as one large file
(effectively its disk), and a clutch of smaller ones on the host
machine, so you might want to tweak your backup to exclude that. My
large file is about 53GB.
I back up my VM once a week, and I just copy the entire Turnpike
directory to the host machine, and the back up on the host machine then
picks that up. If all you are running on the VM is Turnpike, then that
will probably take you less than a minute to do. Remember to shut
down Turnpike Connect first, it will have files open, which may cause
you problems.
Adrian

Ah, great minds think alike. :) I read SilverE's post before yours, and
came up with the same idea.

[Andy]

In message <***@jhall_nospamxx.co.uk>, John Hall
<***@jhall.co.uk> wrote
[]

Post by John Hall
One final - hopefully! - question. Does having a VM complicate the
process of taking backs-ups, or will my memory-resident back-up utility
running in the parent machine be able to "see" the whole disk and spot
any files that have been altered, whether by software running on either
the parent or on the VM, and back them up? (I'm backing up to NAS, if
that's relevant.)

I'd expect that the backer-up will not know about files in the VM, far
less changes to them. I run Windows 7 Pro with the VM that Windows made
available at the time; that emulates Windows XP and all my 32-bit
programs love it - as does the 16-bit installer for Acrobat.

Initially, I created a batch file (showing my age there...) with XCOPY
backing up the files. I found that it was backing up the entire VM,
which could be monstrously large as it tends to not release memory; this
delayed bedtime too much. So I created a copy of the relevant files for
data and for TP and used XCOPY to back up what had changed to the
physical hard disk. That in turn is backed up frequently to USB drives.

"It works for me" :)

[news]

Post by John Hall
One final - hopefully! - question. Does having a VM complicate the
process of taking backs-ups, or will my memory-resident back-up utility
running in the parent machine be able to "see" the whole disk and spot
any files that have been altered, whether by software running on either
the parent or on the VM, and back them up? (I'm backing up to NAS, if
that's relevant.)

I run Win7 Pro 32bit from a VM partition on a Win 11 64bit
mini-desktop. I backup from within the VM. I figured that pointing at
the host partition was dangerous as it is on the same machine, so if
that collapsed I would lose everything.

Instead, I back up across a home wireless network to an old laptop
plugged into the mains in a spare room also running Win7 Pro 32bit in a
VM partition on a Win10 64bit OS. It would have normally been junked
because the battery was getting unreliable.

As double protection, I schedule a copy of the same backup prog on
that machine to periodically update an external 1Tb hard disk via USB
cable [also a redundant bit of kit].

It seems complicated just to keep using an obsolete prog like TP. My
computer engineer son thinks I am insane but it is pretty
straightforward and runs seamlessly, as do several other progs requiring
32bit. I also know that if my main machine crashes I have a duplicate
in the spare room.

[John Hall]

In message <***@davidlawson.co.uk>,
news<***@davidlawson.co.uk> writes

<snip>

Post by news
I run Win7 Pro 32bit from a VM partition on a Win 11 64bit
mini-desktop. I backup from within the VM. I figured that pointing at
the host partition was dangerous as it is on the same machine, so if
that collapsed I would lose everything.

<snip>

Thanks. I back up to NAS so shouldn't have that problem.

[SilverE]

At 18:29:15 on Mon, 5 Jun 2023, Adrian wrote in

Post by Adrian

Post by John Hall
Within the next year or so, I think I shall have to buy a new PC,
which will have to run 64-bit Windows as more and more applications
1. Install a 32-bit VM, so I can continue using the Turnpike that I
know and love.
Pros: No need to learn a new email and news client.
Cons: The VM will add extra complexity and I'll have to learn how to
use it. Also I imagine I'll have to pay for it.

I've got Oracle's VirtualBox and VMWare's Workstation Player installed,
and they are both free to download and use.

For some reason my machine preferred VMWare - and its Unity (seamless)
mode is excellent, you can run TP just as if it's on the host machine.
People have worried about having to install lots of software on the VM
to deal with attachments: not so, just drag them from the TP window to
the host desktop and open them from there.

Post by Adrian
Very little in the way of complexity, or to learn. Download and
install the VM software (simple). Download the Windows 10/32 ISO
(simple), and then a few clicks on the VM software and you've got a
Win10 install running. It seems that you can run it without a licence,
with a minor loss of functionality.

I can live without Personalisation since with Unity mode I hardly ever
see the VM's cosmetics.

Post by Adrian
You can set up the VM to interact with the underlying PC's file system
(my VM mounts it as the Z drive), which is handy for transferring files
(e.g. setting up Turnpike and for email attachments) between the VM and
the underlying machine.

Best to set the VM's network card as "bridged" which means it uses the
real network directly as if it was a separate PC. It appears on the
network as such and you can share/map drives in the same way.

Post by Adrian
Come on in, the water's lovely.

Agree - after several years of it.

Post by Adrian
Adrian

[J. P. Gilliver]

Post by John Hall
Within the next year or so, I think I shall have to buy a new PC, which
will have to run 64-bit Windows as more and more applications nowadays

Are these applications you have to use? I've seen little new software
(or 64-bit-only "new" versions of software I already use) in the last
10-15 years that did anything I could see wanting.

I recently had to replace my PC, and bought a refurbished one with
W7-32. thinking I might get my data back; somewhat higher spec. (apart
from amount of RAM, obviously) than the one I lost. I'm really enjoying
using it! (It's more responsive, has a bigger screen, and - unexpected -
an excellent sound system.)

Post by John Hall
1. Install a 32-bit VM, so I can continue using the Turnpike that I
know and love.
Pros: No need to learn a new email and news client.
Cons: The VM will add extra complexity and I'll have to learn how to
use it. Also I imagine I'll have to pay for it.

(As others have said, free ones are available.)

Post by John Hall
2. Switch to using Thunderbird.
Pros: I can run a trial of (32-bit) Thunderbird before I get the new
PC, which will give me a chance to find out if it's for me before doing
anything irrevocable.
Cons: I'll have to transfer my data - of which the most important thing
is probably my address book - across from TP to TB, but I think I know
how to do this, thanks to tips in posts to this newsgroup that I've
saved over the years. The other con is that I'll have to learn how to
use TB.

Many of the tips on "how to make TB look/work rather like TP" involve
add-ons to TB that are quite old - in particular, that probably won't
work after version 52 or 59 (I forget which), when there was a big
change in how TB works (it's to a large part Firefox code, and Firefox
had the same change in philosophy not long before).

Post by John Hall
Can anyone recommend which approach they think is better?
(I'm going off on an eight day holiday tomorrow, and may not see any
responses until I return.)

If I _hadn't_ had hopes of getting my TP data back, I'd probably have
gone for TB (I have a tiny bit of experience using it, or rather helping
someone else - a little old (but feisty!) lady - who I set up with it.
But even though I didn't get my TP data back, I in fact installed TP.
(Must have been the first _new_ - rather than to use old files - install
of TP in the country for some decades!) [Fortunately, I still had the
keys from when I bought it.]

[John Hall]

Post by J. P. Gilliver

Post by John Hall
Within the next year or so, I think I shall have to buy a new PC,
which will have to run 64-bit Windows as more and more applications

Are these applications you have to use? I've seen little new software
(or 64-bit-only "new" versions of software I already use) in the last
10-15 years that did anything I could see wanting.

Not that I HAVE to use as yet, but I think things are heading that way,
especially if you want to run the latest versions of software. Also as
apps tend to get bigger and bigger, the 4GB limit on RAM is likely to
increasingly become a problem.

Also W10 has recently switched to security updates only, and I believe
even those are scheduled to stop in 12 or 18 months time. At that point
I'd want to switch to W11 for safety, and that is 64-bit only.

<snip>

Post by J. P. Gilliver
If I _hadn't_ had hopes of getting my TP data back, I'd probably have
gone for TB (I have a tiny bit of experience using it, or rather
helping someone else - a little old (but feisty!) lady - who I set up
with it. But even though I didn't get my TP data back, I in fact
installed TP. (Must have been the first _new_ - rather than to use old
files - install of TP in the country for some decades!) [Fortunately, I
still had the keys from when I bought it.]

From what I've read in this thread, I'm currently leaning towards taking
the VM route and retaining TP.

[J. P. Gilliver]

Post by John Hall

Post by J. P. Gilliver

Post by John Hall
Within the next year or so, I think I shall have to buy a new PC,
which will have to run 64-bit Windows as more and more applications

Are these applications you have to use? I've seen little new software
(or 64-bit-only "new" versions of software I already use) in the last
10-15 years that did anything I could see wanting.

Not that I HAVE to use as yet, but I think things are heading that way,
especially if you want to run the latest versions of software. Also as

Indeed. As I said, I just haven't seen _anything_ for many years that
makes me _want_ to use either anything new, or new versions of anything
I currently use.

Post by John Hall
apps tend to get bigger and bigger, the 4GB limit on RAM is likely to
increasingly become a problem.

To use new stuff, certainly. I'm currently running with - hang on while
I open task manager - about 2.5 G of RAM used, and I have running TP
(connect and explorer), Firefox, Chrome (with 18 tabs open and no "sleep
unused tabs" addon), a scheduler, and several other things running.

Post by John Hall
Also W10 has recently switched to security updates only, and I believe
even those are scheduled to stop in 12 or 18 months time. At that point
I'd want to switch to W11 for safety, and that is 64-bit only.

I guess yes, you would. Obviously 7, as I'm using, stopped any support
some years ago. FWIW AVG free is still supporting 7-32, though
presumably will stop (at least updating) eventually. (I just checked -
"last updated: a minute ago".)
[]

Post by John Hall
From what I've read in this thread, I'm currently leaning towards
taking the VM route and retaining TP.

If you're buying a new PC, that probably makes sense. (Although I did
have a look round - OK, only PC world - and decided any laptop that
clearly wasn't designed to go obsolete _very_ quickly was going to be
300-500 pounds; this one cost me 70, and I'm very happy with it.)

[John Hall]

<snip>

Post by J. P. Gilliver

Post by John Hall
From what I've read in this thread, I'm currently leaning towards
taking the VM route and retaining TP.

If you're buying a new PC, that probably makes sense. (Although I did
have a look round - OK, only PC world - and decided any laptop that
clearly wasn't designed to go obsolete _very_ quickly was going to be
300-500 pounds; this one cost me 70, and I'm very happy with it.)

I'll probably stick with a desktop and, as I'd hope that it would last
me some years (my current PC is 9 years old), I'd be willing to go up to
maybe 700-800. I'd be happy to go on using my existing monitor.

[Martin Liddle]

Post by John Hall
2. Switch to using Thunderbird.
Pros: I can run a trial of (32-bit) Thunderbird before I get the new PC,
which will give me a chance to find out if it's for me before doing
anything irrevocable.
Cons: I'll have to transfer my data - of which the most important thing
is probably my address book - across from TP to TB, but I think I know
how to do this, thanks to tips in posts to this newsgroup that I've
saved over the years. The other con is that I'll have to learn how to
use TB.

I switched to Thunderbird years ago and I have to say I haven't
regretted it. You have support for modern authentication methods, a
steady flow of bug fixes and some new features. It took me a couple of
days to transfer data and get up to speed but it was time well spent.

[John Hall]

Post by Martin Liddle

Post by John Hall
2. Switch to using Thunderbird.
Pros: I can run a trial of (32-bit) Thunderbird before I get the new
PC, which will give me a chance to find out if it's for me before
doing anything irrevocable.
Cons: I'll have to transfer my data - of which the most important
thing is probably my address book - across from TP to TB, but I think
I know how to do this, thanks to tips in posts to this newsgroup that
I've saved over the years. The other con is that I'll have to learn
how to use TB.

I switched to Thunderbird years ago and I have to say I haven't
regretted it. You have support for modern authentication methods, a
steady flow of bug fixes and some new features. It took me a couple of
days to transfer data and get up to speed but it was time well spent.

Thanks. And thanks to all other responders.